Youth section

Post by **gyboth** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:22 am

i'm contemplating the youth section implementation.

my solution would be very simple (as always): the user specifies which percentage of his weekly income (i'd say between 0% and 20 or 25% at most) is devoted to the youth. depending on this value, young players come more or less often into the team (ie. the more you pay the more often new players come). also, the skill and talent of the new players depends on the percentage you pay.

i'm pretty sure this is too simple for most of you, so let me know what kind of system you prefer.

don't forget that the game shouldn't become unbalanced. new talented and skilled and young players coming into your team every 3-4 weeks won't do

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:12 pm

interesting, this could have some large effects on balance as you say., if not implemented correctly.

percentage of his weekly income (i'd say between 0% and 20 or 25% at most) is devoted to the youth.

sounds like a good place to start.

depending on this value, young players come more or less often

sounds fair enough.

the skill and talent of the new players depends on the percentage you pay.

ok heres a vector thought...ohh dear

the "chances" of finding a young good talent obviously increases the more money you spend. The number of youth to select from would also increase the more money you spend. However its still should be possible for a low income and thus low youth academy to get that occasional super youth who no doubt will end up getting sold. this happens so many times in real football. The lower league teams find these kids and then they get recognised by the big teams. The payment by the bigger teams for these kids of course help the finance of the smaller teams.

I assume there will be a "accept youth into team" or "put on transfer list"
I can imagine that in the lower leagues where every dollar counts. suddenly getting a new player who will require wages, could upset the balance, so there should be a simple way of getting rid of the youth but getting something for your trouble. I can imagine a scenario where a struggling team spends lots on the youth academy only to sell them in an effort to raise much needed funds.

Id have another TL looking page, YA?

(but specific only to your team) where you can see youths turn up, select them to play (at which point they require a contract and wages) or leave them(where they just consume the YA funds and get better) or send them across to the TL for sale. I see this whole thing more has a help to the lower league teams then higher. I think? its a simple scheme but this way it can provide great flexability and options.

I would tend to link the scout level and maybe even the physio level. as well. You could use this to help distinguish the skill level of the youths coming thru. Rather than just money spent. This would be nice, to somehow enable the user to "adjust" or have some control over the probability of the number of youths produced and their skill level.

I can see other effects the YA will have but all look useful to the struggling manager . I think if implemented correctly it would be a great bonus to the game without adding further complication.

Post by **gyboth** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:01 am

vector wrote:However its still should be possible for a low income and thus low youth academy to get that occasional super youth who no doubt will end up getting sold. this happens so many times in real football. The lower league teams find these kids and then they get recognised by the big teams. The payment by the bigger teams for these kids of course help the finance of the smaller teams.

of course the youth generation wouldn't be completely deterministic, so you could get an exceptionally talented player even in a lower league. but you could also get an exceptionally bad player

I assume there will be a "accept youth into team" or "put on transfer list"

no, only an accept or reject. you can put him on the list after you accepted. and you have to have an 'open slot' in the team for him (so there will be a warning some weeks before that a youth player is coming).

I can imagine that in the lower leagues where every dollar counts. suddenly getting a new player who will require wages, could upset the balance, so there should be a simple way of getting rid of the youth but getting something for your trouble. I can imagine a scenario where a struggling team spends lots on the youth academy only to sell them in an effort to raise much needed funds.

yes, maybe. but putting onto the list without accepting him in your team won't work. maybe we could offer a third possibility, 'sell to an interested team for XYZ credits', with XYZ being a bit less than you'd expect to get for him via the transfer list.

Id have another TL looking page, YA? (but specific only to your team) where you can see youths turn up, select them to play (at which point they require a contract and wages) or leave them(where they just consume the YA funds and get better) or send them across to the TL for sale. I see this whole thing more has a help to the lower league teams then higher. I think? its a simple scheme but this way it can provide great flexability and options.

a bit like the puppy window in Greyhounds

yes, i tought about this too. the problem is the following: for such a thing to make sense, you'd have to have at least 3-4 youth players in your YA. but that's too many -- the game becomes too simple if you get 3-4 new players for free every 30 weeks or so.

nevertheless an appealing thought. maybe we could make it so that there are only 3-4 players if you pay really much, 25% or so. otherwise there's only 1 or maybe 2 if you're paying 18%.

You could use this to help distinguish the skill level of the youths coming thru. Rather than just money spent. This would be nice, to somehow enable the user to "adjust" or have some control over the probability of the number of youths produced and their skill level.

i'm not sure. the scout is already very important, it'd be a bit too much IMO to link him to the youth, too.

without adding further complication.

you obviously found out how to argue with me

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:54 pm

putting onto the list without accepting him in your team won't work.

yep i think thats a good idea. the youth has to have had a few games in your side. this is what gets him his wage and fee. kind of like graduating from the academy. it now makes him available.

Id have another TL looking page, YA?
problem is the following: ...

i agree which is why i was tending towards a different approach. like an academy i expect to see more than one youth. you may have 5-6 for eg, but they would no doubt be so low in skill as not to be useful or still too young to be elegible to play maybe. So as a manager you wouldnt/couldnt bring him into your side.

You may need these youths at times if you had multiple inj or bans and just needed someone to fill in the space for one game.
Each week youd check back at the academy, and see if any of the youths had gotten better,come of age top up the kitty etc. ie you would see them grow in skill. only a few of course would ever get to be useful. the percentage of which would depend on the monies you spend on the academy.. i guess a bit like the stadium window.

i'm not sure. the scout is already very important, it'd be a bit too much IMO to link him to the youth, too.

yeah true. I used the current scout idea rather than "yet another' one but maybe you could simply have two "things" that would allow you to adjust (indirectly and of course with randomness thrown in) the speed at which they grow in skill and the quality. you could call these things Quantity and Quality or Monies and Youth coach or training equipment. etc etc
this would add another slight distraction to the manager .."do i spend comparativly lotsa money on anew TL player or grow a YA one" It might even be neat to allow the manager to select a type ..like "im now training FWD" or goalkeepers.

I see it a bit like the live game. you dont have to use it . the computer can generate results by itself but if you want to try and fiddle the swing your way you can dabble a little in the YA page. Currently the LG does this so well. you can go for a quick fire no LG season and take your chances but there is no doubt that running the LG and making changes during the match can swing the game in your favour..sometimes only of course.

Same here. Default is "no YA". Like the TL you dont have to use it but if you want you click on the YA page toggle a few figures and watch them grow.

just a thought. somone once said if your going to do it do it right

Post by **gyboth** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:30 pm

i agree which is why i was tending towards a different approach. like an academy i expect to see more than one youth. you may have 5-6 for eg, but they would no doubt be so low in skill as not to be useful or still too young to be elegible to play maybe. So as a manager you wouldnt/couldnt bring him into your side.

this is a great idea, i hadn't thought of this. you're right, if most of the youths are too weak, it doesn't pose a balancing problem to have 5-6 of them.

You may need these youths at times if you had multiple inj or bans and just needed someone to fill in the space for one game.
Each week youd check back at the academy, and see if any of the youths had gotten better,come of age top up the kitty etc. ie you would see them grow in skill. only a few of course would ever get to be useful. the percentage of which would depend on the monies you spend on the academy.. i guess a bit like the stadium window.

yes. i could make it so that the user can move players back and forth between youth academy and team, provided they are young enough and old enough (e.g. between 16 and 20 years). question is, how do we count youths in the team? as normal players, so that you may only have 20 'normal' players + youths? or don't they count for the 20-players limit?

you could call these things Quantity and Quality or Monies and Youth coach or training equipment. etc etc

yeah, youth coach sounds good. the well tried best-good-average-bad decision, i'd say.

this would add another slight distraction to the manager .."do i spend comparativly lotsa money on anew TL player or grow a YA one" It might even be neat to allow the manager to select a type ..like "im now training FWD" or goalkeepers.

'growing' players would be a very long-term plan, of course. we haven't decided how young the youngest players in the YA will be, but i'd say about 14-15. so you'll have to wait a year until you can try them out in your team, and at least 3 or 4 years until they can be really useful.

I see it a bit like the live game. you dont have to use it . the computer can generate results by itself but if you want to try and fiddle the swing your way you can dabble a little in the YA page.

yes, you can set the YA percentage to 0% (btw, i need an expression for this: the percentage of income you spend on the YA), the youth coach to BAD (i'd say the coach doesn't cost anything if there are no youth in your academy), and you can ignore the YA completely afterwards.

Same here. Default is "no YA". Like the TL you dont have to use it but if you want you click on the YA page toggle a few figures and watch them grow.

no, i suggest default is about 5% for the YA and coach average.

just a thought. somone once said if your going to do it do it right

here's another one: if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right

not my one-liner, though, it's from lois mcmaster bujold.

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:28 am

this is a great idea, i hadn't thought of this. you're right, if most of the youths are too weak, it doesn't pose a balancing problem to have 5-6 of them.

yes I dont think it will pose a ballance problem

yes. i could make it so that the user can move players back and forth between youth academy and team, provided they are young enough and old enough (e.g. between 16 and 20 years).

excellent.

question is, how do we count youths in the team? as normal players, so that you may only have 20 'normal' players + youths? or don't they count for the 20-players limit?

20 only yes no mater what. I dont know if others have managed it.but I rarely manage to have more than 16 players in the lower leagues. your trying to win but cant support the wages or even have the capital to buy more players. so I think the 20 limit is still fine. It may be a problem with the higher leagues multimillion $ teams but then something that makes it more tricky for them is a good thing

youth coach sounds good. the well tried best-good-average-bad decision, i'd say.

yep i agree

'growing' players would be a very long-term plan

i dont like this idea either. it would take way too long.
hmm maybe call it "recruiting" FWDs now?

we haven't decided how young the youngest players in the YA will be, but i'd say about 14-15. so you'll have to wait a year until you can try them out in your team, and at least 3 or 4 years until they can be really useful.

yeah your right none of the time/age stuff will work here its just too long. best to work from the recruiting and coaching aspects. The more you spend on coaching the quicker they become useful skill levels. the more you spend on recruiting the better chance you have of finding/adding a youth in your academy

you can set the YA percentage to 0% (btw, i need an expression for this: the percentage of income you spend on the YA)

that sounds fine I cant think of anything better or shorter just yet.
"YA costs" for short.?

summary
things we want from the YA.
1)How many/often youths appear
2)are they the type we want. eg targeting a FWD
3)their skill level.
4)how quick they increase their skill level

2) maybe a bit wishfull thinking tho i think it might be interesting to think on.
ignoring 2) for a moment we can simplify the above to
how many and skill.

how can we effect these things.
recruiting/scout, training facilities, coaching.
we need to give these things a monetary value.
simplify again. Coach and facilities are very similar.

so we are left with a Recruiting Officer and facilities.?

The RO type effects the number of youths entry skill and (eval)
the facilities effects how quick those skills are developed.
(it be nice to have an effect on the EVAL. like in the TL .
"he was a promising candidate but after training he just didnt reach it")

the youth coach to BAD (i'd say the coach doesn't cost anything if there are no youth in your academy), and you can ignore the YA completely afterwards.

yep just call him the RO. or just recruiting.

i suggest default is about 5% for the YA and coach average.

yep 5% for the YA (facilities) and avg for the RO
you could almost make them both just percentages of income rather than people with wages. like the stadium, safety and capacity. this way the bi weekly finance report only has one entry.
YA =$1000
which is the sum of the two percentages. recruiting and facilities.
to tweak you go into the YA page and adjust a stadium like pop up?

this would allow the user to emulate a recruiting drive for eg, make that high for a few weeks to get youths in then drop it lower (to just top up ones that are no good) inc the facilities to get them to there best then drop it back when we are doing well etc . may work out rather well

gyözö[/quote]

Post by **gyboth** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:12 am

20 only yes no mater what.

right, it's also a lot simpler to implement.

'growing' players would be a very long-term plan
i dont like this idea either. it would take way too long.
hmm maybe call it "recruiting" FWDs now?

ok, let's say youth players are between 15,5 and 17,5 years.

The more you spend on coaching the quicker they become useful skill levels. the more you spend on recruiting the better chance you have of finding/adding a youth in your academy

yes, that's what i was thinking. the better the youth coach, the faster they improve. the more you spend %-wise on the academy, the more youths you get and the more talented they are.

2) maybe a bit wishfull thinking tho i think it might be interesting to think on.
ignoring 2) for a moment we can simplify the above to
how many and skill.

yes. we can add 2) later.

so we are left with a Recruiting Officer and facilities.?

i called them youth coach and youth academy investment.

The RO type effects the number of youths entry skill and (eval)
the facilities effects how quick those skills are developed.
(it be nice to have an effect on the EVAL. like in the TL .
"he was a promising candidate but after training he just didnt reach it")

no, the other way round. the coach is responsible for their development, the investment for the number of new youths and their talent.
and the user will decide which youths get kicked out of the academy.

you could almost make them both just percentages of income rather than people with wages. like the stadium, safety and capacity. this way the bi weekly finance report only has one entry.
YA =$1000
which is the sum of the two percentages. recruiting and facilities.
to tweak you go into the YA page and adjust a stadium like pop up?

ah, youth coach like physio and scout is fine, too, users already know how that works.

i don't have a popup but you can have a look at the youth list in the right treeview (like TL) and manage them via a context menu (move to team, kick out of the academy).

this would allow the user to emulate a recruiting drive for eg, make that high for a few weeks to get youths in then drop it lower (to just top up ones that are no good) inc the facilities to get them to there best then drop it back when we are doing well etc . may work out rather well

god forbid! this would be totally unrealistic. the investment percentage and youth coach value will only get considered as an average value over the last 20 or 30 weeks when developing the youths or finding out whether new ones come into the academy. you have to invest long-term into your academy to have good results.

gyözö

Post by **gyboth** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:23 am

first draft is done. probably rather buggy and unbalanced.

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:42 am

i don't have a popup but you can have a look at the youth list in the right treeview (like TL) and manage them via a context menu

even better no horrid popups makes vector smile

this would allow the user to emulate a recruiting drive for eg

this would be totally unrealistic.

maybe but im a little concerned that the time aspect would make it un-interesting to a user..Wont know till we try i guess. I was a bit short explaining my thought. what I was saying, that it should only take a few..ok maybe 4-5 rather than 1-2. to see "something happen" else users might get bored with it.? allowing them to emulate things like a recruitment drive may help it "look" like its worth twiddling with. you can ballance this back by making the youths not much good. sorta of as you would expect if you advertised a recruitment drive and have everything on full. its a good chance you will get every man and his dog turn up

some where in the middle is best and the user has to find this ballance.. but yes your right(i can hear your thinking) the code would be harder and its all too complicated.

if its avg over 20weeks are you saying that nothing happens for the first 20 weeks? I just feel 20 weeks is a long time to wait.. for a change to have effect.

time to just play with it a bit and see how it feels.. too much thinking and not enough doing

users already know how that works.

i was mainly thinking of a way to simplify the finance report as you mentioned you were having problems with space?

Post by **gyboth** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:24 pm

vector wrote:maybe but im a little concerned that the time aspect would make it un-interesting to a user..Wont know till we try i guess. I was a bit short explaining my thought. what I was saying, that it should only take a few..ok maybe 4-5 rather than 1-2. to see "something happen" else users might get bored with it.? allowing them to emulate things like a recruitment drive may help it "look" like its worth twiddling with. you can ballance this back by making the youths not much good. sorta of as you would expect if you advertised a recruitment drive and have everything on full. its a good chance you will get every man and his dog turn up some where in the middle is best and the user has to find this ballance.. but yes your right(i can hear your thinking) the code would be harder and its all too complicated.

i don't know... maybe. we'll just have to find the balance. like it is now, you can have one youth every 20 weeks at most. that's too few, according to you then. on the other hand, he's probably better (or will be when he gets older) than most of your current players. of course this only applies if you can afford paying 25% for 20 weeks.

your suggestion would be to have more youths (maybe one every 5-6 weeks) but have a lot of bad and untalented ones even with 25% investment.

maybe your idea is better. we'd have to test things.

if its avg over 20weeks are you saying that nothing happens for the first 20 weeks? I just feel 20 weeks is a long time to wait.. for a change to have effect.

no, it's just that the value that gets considered when calculating when the next youth comes, or how talented he'll be, doesn't change just like that. if it's 5 currently and you put investment on 25, it won't be 25 next week. it'll be ((5*20) + 25) / 21, ie. a weighted average (the old value weighted with 20, the new one with 1).

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:50 pm

like it is now, you can have one youth every 20 weeks at most. that's too few, according to you then. on the other hand, he's probably better (or will be when he gets older) than most of your current players. of course this only applies if you can afford paying 25% for 20 weeks.

i was going to say thats what i found

I played for 3 seasons at national conference level english league.
The team started as below medium and i was able to maintain a rank around 10ish.
The ballance of the game revolves arounds the TL.
I think in the past i have been forced to play with 15 or less men, of a higher skill than required because you just cant find the ones you want on the TL. This of course means you cant support thier wages etc and so you must win and get promoted so you can get better ticket income.. its a spiral upwards or financial ruin.
I forced myself to not buy these players, it takes much longer but eventually ones of a skill just above or = to what you have come along and having more men means you can ride out bans and inj.
I waited an entire season to get one fwd. And I mean that it was the only fwd that appeared on the TL that was within 10 skill points of what I needed.for eg.

The youths were all usefull i was averaging about 2 a season kept some sold others. It reinforces my thoughts about point 2) further in the posts (user adjust what type of player comes his way.) or that more youths come in and you can decide which ones to keep. The first two youths were both keepers for eg. not much use.

so ,my statement about the game revolving around the TL is true. The randomness and outcome of the TL really governs the game more than anything else., more than your manager skills. if you get good TL breaks you win if you dont you just tread water surviving,

this may or may not be a good thing

Post by **gyboth** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:14 am

vector wrote: I think in the past i have been forced to play with 15 or less men, of a higher skill than required because you just cant find the ones you want on the TL. This of course means you cant support thier wages etc and so you must win and get promoted so you can get better ticket income.. its a spiral upwards or financial ruin.

why higher skill? the game should start with a stadium that's big enough for you to support your players. or did you buy some with high wages?

I forced myself to not buy these players, it takes much longer but eventually ones of a skill just above or = to what you have come along and having more men means you can ride out bans and inj.
I waited an entire season to get one fwd. And I mean that it was the only fwd that appeared on the TL that was within 10 skill points of what I needed.for eg.

this isn't a good thing, if you had to force yourself not to buy players. maybe you're right and youths should come more often. otherwise users just ignore the YA.

The youths were all usefull i was averaging about 2 a season kept some sold others. It reinforces my thoughts about point 2) further in the posts (user adjust what type of player comes his way.) or that more youths come in and you can decide which ones to keep. The first two youths were both keepers for eg. not much use.

that wouldn't be a big problem. we could introduce an option 'look for POS'. and the default setting should produce more midfielders and defenders than forwards and more forwards than goalies, i guess.

so ,my statement about the game revolving around the TL is true. The randomness and outcome of the TL really governs the game more than anything else., more than your manager skills. if you get good TL breaks you win if you dont you just tread water surviving,

this may or may not be a good thing

you don't sound enthusiastic, so it's rather a 'not good thing' for you, right? any suggestions how to make it better?

anyway, i'm going to tweak a bit and make the YA produce more players (with lower quality) and add an option to look for a given position.

i also thought youths improve a bit slow, they should get better faster (otherwise they'll be too bloody weak compared to 18-19 year old players from the TL when they reach that age). what impressions did you have concerning their skill development?

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:48 am

the game should start with a stadium that's big enough for you to support your players. or did you buy some with high wages?

well it dosent start with enough men. You get an inj or so and your in trouble.
(all the pc teams of course have the full 20 men

so you really need more men of equal or less wages so you can: A) support them and B) grow.
Because the TL dosent supply enough <= players. I end up buying over my limit.

this isn't a good thing, if you had to force yourself not to buy players. maybe you're right and youths should come more often. otherwise users just ignore the YA.

yes its a difficult thing. If you made the TL with more players it migh upset the ballance of the whole thing. This is why I was excited about the YA. It can produce players without the ballance being as badly effected... I think.

that wouldn't be a big problem. we could introduce an option 'look for POS'. and the default setting should produce more midfielders and defenders than forwards and more forwards than goalies, i guess.

yep more youths. this would do two things. First the user would see it as being more active and thus would be more attracted to fiddlin with it

and secondly it would allow the production of at least the lower players in the side.
Lower skilled players allow the user to play strong team and weak teams for different games. This allows the user to manipulate their position on the ladder. play lower skilled younger players in an effort to loose to try and stay midtable. the younger players get experience and grow. The side dosent spiral down or go up too soon. You cant just jump to the next league unless your foundations, (avg team skill and stadium etc) are correct.

suggestions how to make it better?

keep in mind this is more so with the lower leagues. the upper leagues provide a different sort of game. its more about winning while the lower leagues are more of survival and foundations.
(which is why bygfoot is great and adictive:)

can we make the luck of the TL less of an influence?
or
produce players outside of the TL (ie YA)
for now id like to pursue the YA solution. it adds another dimension to the whole game.

i'm going to tweak a bit and make the YA produce more players (with lower quality) and add an option to look for a given position.

a great place to start im with ya

i also thought youths improve a bit slow,

yes however im running at only 15% and best. maybe i need to go up a bit. that was comfortable money wise. I d really strive to have or allow an avg normal of about 17 players, even for weak teams.
I did use a youth goalie. he was about (erm where is player history

17 and skl 27 i think. I was able to rest my good keeper and use the youth. My sides avg skl was about 41. Still he was usefull tho and grew his skill thru experience. I think for the first season i left him in the YA but he wasnt getting much better so i decided to see what playing achieved.

I think the key is being able to have more players in the side. be it lower.. at least you can do things. Look at the fixtures ahead and pick your game to play specific players. to win or loose.. thats where the managment fun comes in IMHO.
eg Im playing against a much better side. so I may as well loose. Play my weaker players rest my good players (and protect them from inj) etc. so that next game, where there is a chance for me to win, I can introduce my better stronger now fresh players. Thats management . Not simply reacting to cirumstances.which is waht happens when you cant do much about it.

weak compared to 18-19 year old players from the TL

yes they are its not fair

it should be a little quicker.

I do think we are on the right track tho just some tweaking

Post by **gyboth** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:26 pm

okay, tweaking done. youths should come faster but they're worse. and you can look for a given position, e.g. forward.

gyözö

vector · Post by **vector** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:24 pm

I played 2 seasons yesterday and so far all is good.
I was able again to live mid table in the NC league and slowly build up my team.
The YA was at times useful at others not and so at least held my interest.

What I would like to know is what happens with the players in the YA.
If a youth comes along who is not so good.
Is there any point keeping him?
Is he using resources?
Even the basic youth is worth some money on the TL. Its generally worth putting him on your team and then into the TL just for a a few extra dollars.
Is this a bad thing?
Is it good to keep all the youths?
If they arnt taking resources from other youths then you may as well keep them in the YA list. Sometimes anything is better than nothing. Like when inj strike. If its not costing you anything it might be worth holding onto them for these ocasions.
Is this a bad thing?

Ill need to think on it some more and also see how they shape up in the upper leagues.

However for now it certainly adds to the game.