Bygfoot Football Manager

As I mentioned in another thread, I have been working on some updates to bygfoot. I now have some builds for people to test if they are interested.

Here are the builds:
https://github.com/tstellar/bygfoot/rel ... 3.3-alpha1

And here is the summary of changes I've made:
https://github.com/tstellar/bygfoot/com ... d1b9cdff66

Hey tstellar. Well, I wanted to post and ask you questions about your changes you did with the bygfoot code over at github, in relation to your changes to the Faroe Islands country definition. The only problem was that some questions I would ask would be just as simply answered if I actually played the game and definition in question, so I did that. So, here are my thoughts and comments.

To begin with, I downloaded the windows 64-bit version and played it on my computer, with nothing more added. I have a 64-bit version of Windows 7 professional on this netbook in a separate partition. I'll add though that my firewall program Comodo, decided to sandbox the program when running it, so it was run with a virtual boundary around it, which was fine as it still played. So as I copied the contents of the zip file onto my desktop in windows, whenever I would run it, it would just run in a virtual sandbox. Of note, the russian flag png file was still wrong.

Now as I said, I played the Faroe Islands definition, and I have a few comments about the definition itself, but also about the program. When I tried to go from Season 1, week 50 to Season 2, week 1, the program crashed on me. I do have the error logs of bygfoot.log and stderr.log, which I was able to find. Their contents are as follows:

bygfoot.log:
"2021-01-12T09:30:15.669734Z Could not open file 'C:\Users\HPMini\Desktop\bygfoot-2.3.3-unofficial\saves\last_country' in mode 'w'."

"2021-01-12T09:30:15.669734Z file_store_text_in_saves: failed to store 'faroe_islands' in file 'C:\Users\HPMini\Desktop\bygfoot-2.3.3-unofficial\saves\last_country'"

"2021-01-12T22:20:07.729345Z cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam scotland1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

"2021-01-12T22:20:07.760546Z Press RETURN. Program will exit."

"2021-01-12T22:25:33.074765Z cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam scotland1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

"2021-01-12T22:25:33.090365Z Press RETURN. Program will exit."

"2021-01-12T22:35:19.494596Z cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam portugal1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

"2021-01-12T22:35:19.510196Z Press RETURN. Program will exit."

Now when I started, I did not find any "saves" directory to save any progress games anywhere, so I did end up creating it outside of the game before saving any games there. And as I tried to progress from Season 1, week 50 to Season 2, week 1 on more than one occasion, which is likely why you see multiple times that the "program will exit" listed, the program did crash as I mentioned earlier. And whether or not these errors are from the included definitions OR the coding of the program, I can't say since I used the definitions that you included with the program. I'm just reporting this issue to you and I may try the program again with different definitions, but for the moment, not yet.

As for the stderr.log file, it has the following contents:
"(bygfoot.exe:1160): Gtk-WARNING **: Could not find the icon 'gtk-file'. The 'hicolor' theme
was not found either, perhaps you need to install it.
You can get a copy from:
http://icon-theme.freedesktop.org/releases"

"** (bygfoot.exe:1160): WARNING **: cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam portugal1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

"** (bygfoot.exe:1160): WARNING **: Press RETURN. Program will exit."

So with this one, part seems definition based and part seems like something else.

Now, the rest of this post will be about the definitions and the additions you did to include new tags and all. At this post here, it was titled "Re: svn2git conversion plus a few improvements", you mentioned that you "added some additional promotion logic for promoting / relegating reserve teams." Could you explain a little further, as I am curious about this?

Now when I played the Faroe Islands definitions, I played as the team of N. Runavik V, which was in the fourth tier and having one of the lowest average talent scores in the tier, which was a nice challenge. As it was a reserve team, what limitations, if any, would be placed upon me for playing as this particular team? As the user, could I select this reserve team and start off in the 4th tier and work my way up to the top tier and qualify for either the UEFA Cup or UEFA Champions League (in this example) or would the promotion logic you added to bygfoot stop me from progressing beyond a certain point? And if so, why? If this same logic will stop me from progressing to the top when promotion and relegation is available to the country definition, then why am I, as a user, allowed to pick this particular team to play when the program won't allow me to do what I want to do with it? Again, I only got to play 1 season before the game crashed so I can't answer this question just yet, but if I try a different set of definitions, I might be able to answer the question of how far it will let me go with this team. I guess tstellar, for computer controlled teams, the promotion logic can make sense, but when the user wishes to play those teams, that same promotion logic may not be as nice as it would be otherwise.

As I made notes about the game, probably the biggest note I have would be about the timing of the definition in general, as national play ends in week 35 and the overall game play doesn't end until week 50, which is the last week of the season. I'll tell you the same thing I told billys_boots about timings...you've got a whole lot of open space out there. You can spread the game play around to fill up a lot more space if you want. You don't have to follow the rules of the actual schedule, although when I think of it, it seems like you are taking the schedule too literally. As game play seems to take place between March and October, think of this in the form of a calendar year, from January to December, if you will. Even then, you'll have about 9 or 10 weeks before and after your national game play anyways, but the longer the national game play goes on, the longer your trade window will remain open. Right now, it is open for only 27 weeks. Your Supercup takes place in week 35, of which you have 15 more weeks to wait until the last week of the season. You could easily have the Supercup in week 10, have the season start in week 11, and STILL have a few weeks left after the last scheduled national game until the end of the season, and your trade window would go from 27 weeks long to maybe 35 to 37 weeks long. It is all about spacing things out as you have 49 weeks available to you to play games. You don't have to compress everything. And the supercup in the first season won't have the true competitors in it but that isn't important as you'll be playing it for more than one season and the following seasons will have the correct teams playing in it.

I guess one thing I also noticed was the new cup tag of <week_gap>, within the <cup_round> tag. That tag appears to have the same function as the <break_in> tag that is available in the header section of a cup file, but a little more easier for the user as less calculations are needed. An example of the <break_in> tag would be "<break_in length="1">19</break_in>", which would imply having a 1 week break in competition, beginning in week 19. So the function of your tag already exists with the function of another tag, although it might make it less complicated for the definition creator.

So, I guess that is it for now. This whole reserve team logic is making me wonder and if you could explain it further, that would be appreciated. I guess I'm just wondering who you are expecting the users of this definition to play as and how much of a challenge are they expecting to get. I'm also wondering how this reserve team logic can translate to other country definitions, especially when it comes to cup file coding. Oh well. Anyways, that's all for now,

Will aka will_the_canuck

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am "2021-01-12T22:20:07.729345Z cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam scotland1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

These errors are problems with the definitions. You might have better luck playing with the definitions from the forums.

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am

Now, the rest of this post will be about the definitions and the additions you did to include new tags and all. At this post here, it was titled "Re: svn2git conversion plus a few improvements", you mentioned that you "added some additional promotion logic for promoting / relegating reserve teams." Could you explain a little further, as I am curious about this?

Now when I played the Faroe Islands definitions, I played as the team of N. Runavik V, which was in the fourth tier and having one of the lowest average talent scores in the tier, which was a nice challenge. As it was a reserve team, what limitations, if any, would be placed upon me for playing as this particular team? As the user, could I select this reserve team and start off in the 4th tier and work my way up to the top tier and qualify for either the UEFA Cup or UEFA Champions League (in this example) or would the promotion logic you added to bygfoot stop me from progressing beyond a certain point? And if so, why? If this same logic will stop me from progressing to the top when promotion and relegation is available to the country definition, then why am I, as a user, allowed to pick this particular team to play when the program won't allow me to do what I want to do with it? Again, I only got to play 1 season before the game crashed so I can't answer this question just yet, but if I try a different set of definitions, I might be able to answer the question of how far it will let me go with this team. I guess tstellar, for computer controlled teams, the promotion logic can make sense, but when the user wishes to play those teams, that same promotion logic may not be as nice as it would be otherwise.

The limitations on reserve teams are that they can't be in the same league (Except for the lowest league) or higher than an upper team. I don't think they are really that fun to play as a user, but they help fill out the leagues and make it possible for Faroe Islands to have 4 tiers. There is also an option to prevent reserve teams from playing in cups, which is enabled for the Faroe Islands cup.

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am As I made notes about the game, probably the biggest note I have would be about the timing of the definition in general, as national play ends in week 35 and the overall game play doesn't end until week 50, which is the last week of the season. I'll tell you the same thing I told billys_boots about timings...you've got a whole lot of open space out there. You can spread the game play around to fill up a lot more space if you want. You don't have to follow the rules of the actual schedule, although when I think of it, it seems like you are taking the schedule too literally. As game play seems to take place between March and October, think of this in the form of a calendar year, from January to December, if you will. Even then, you'll have about 9 or 10 weeks before and after your national game play anyways, but the longer the national game play goes on, the longer your trade window will remain open. Right now, it is open for only 27 weeks. Your Supercup takes place in week 35, of which you have 15 more weeks to wait until the last week of the season. You could easily have the Supercup in week 10, have the season start in week 11, and STILL have a few weeks left after the last scheduled national game until the end of the season, and your trade window would go from 27 weeks long to maybe 35 to 37 weeks long. It is all about spacing things out as you have 49 weeks available to you to play games. You don't have to compress everything. And the supercup in the first season won't have the true competitors in it but that isn't important as you'll be playing it for more than one season and the following seasons will have the correct teams playing in it.

I guess one thing I also noticed was the new cup tag of <week_gap>, within the <cup_round> tag. That tag appears to have the same function as the <break_in> tag that is available in the header section of a cup file, but a little more easier for the user as less calculations are needed. An example of the <break_in> tag would be "<break_in length="1">19</break_in>", which would imply having a 1 week break in competition, beginning in week 19. So the function of your tag already exists with the function of another tag, although it might make it less complicated for the definition creator.

I fixed some of these issues in the Faroe Islands definitions since I posted those builds. Specifically, the Super Cup is now week 1 instead of week 35. For the Faroe Islands definitions, I tried to make the schedule match real life as close as possible. I was unsure whether it was better to make week 1, week 1 of the Faroe Islands season which is in March or treat week 1 like the first week of January. What do other definitions do?

tstellar wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:45 am

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am "2021-01-12T22:20:07.729345Z cup_load_choose_team_generate: not enough teams (that don't participate in international cups yet) found in chooseteam scotland1 for cup UEFA Cup (1 specified, 0 found)."

These errors are problems with the definitions. You might have better luck playing with the definitions from the forums.

Well, you are correct in that the above error does imply that the error is with the definitions that are included with your zip file which includes your alpha version. Actually, when looking at the definitions you did include, it does look like the 2.3.3 branch of the European definitions aren't all they can be and there's likely a good reason they were never used in production. Just with the example above, scotland1 only has 4 teams listed in the file. Ah...there's a few teams missing, that's for sure. Although the definitions do include some interesting tidbits which can be useful, I won't want to include them in any future updates, that's for sure.

tstellar wrote:

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am
Now when I played the Faroe Islands definitions, I played as the team of N. Runavik V, which was in the fourth tier and having one of the lowest average talent scores in the tier, which was a nice challenge. As it was a reserve team, what limitations, if any, would be placed upon me for playing as this particular team?...
I guess tstellar, for computer controlled teams, the promotion logic can make sense, but when the user wishes to play those teams, that same promotion logic may not be as nice as it would be otherwise.

The limitations on reserve teams are that they can't be in the same league (Except for the lowest league) or higher than an upper team. I don't think they are really that fun to play as a user, but they help fill out the leagues and make it possible for Faroe Islands to have 4 tiers. There is also an option to prevent reserve teams from playing in cups, which is enabled for the Faroe Islands cup.

Ok. So you say that you don't think they are really that fun to play as a user. Why not? Under normal circumstances, if this promotion logic wasn't available and it was just pick any team you want to conquer the game, what kind of team would you pick? At what level/tier? By that I mean would you pick a team that was the first team of its name or pick a team that was maybe a 3rd or 4th level of its name, like V. Gotu in tier 1 or V. Gotu IV in tier 4? Or might you just pick a team in the lowest tier that wasn't a reserve team, like Miðvágur, which would still give you the challenge of climbing the ladder to the top tier? I'm just curious. And although you say it wouldn't be any fun to play a reserve team, as those same reserve teams are available to be played by the user, do you foresee any players that play the Faroe Islands definitions ever choosing one of those reserve teams to play as, like I did?

I understand your desire to be as accurate as possible to the real thing, like with the Faroe Islands cup, but then I wonder if it really matters? If it does, might you want to consider adding code that would then maybe disallow the user from selecting ANY reserve team and make them computer controlled only? Although when I think of your limitations you have, I'm just wondering about if the top tier team has a reserve team in the second tier and the top tier team is relegated and the reserve team is promoted, the code would disallow the reserve team to be promoted but the first team from the top tier would be relegated. What if the following season in the second tier, the first team then gets relegated again from the second tier and the reserve team is still in the second tier and would be able to be promoted to the first tier. How would that work out, if at all? This may sound like nonsense but with this game, it is possible that it COULD happen, not necessarily that it will happen though. Oooooh. This sounds like something worthy to test the code on.

tstellar wrote:

will_the_canuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am As I made notes about the game, probably the biggest note I have would be about the timing of the definition in general, as national play ends in week 35 and the overall game play doesn't end until week 50, which is the last week of the season. I'll tell you the same thing I told billys_boots about timings...you've got a whole lot of open space out there. You can spread the game play around to fill up a lot more space if you want. You don't have to follow the rules of the actual schedule, although when I think of it, it seems like you are taking the schedule too literally. As game play seems to take place between March and October, think of this in the form of a calendar year, from January to December, if you will. Even then, you'll have about 9 or 10 weeks before and after your national game play anyways, but the longer the national game play goes on, the longer your trade window will remain open. Right now, it is open for only 27 weeks. Your Supercup takes place in week 35, of which you have 15 more weeks to wait until the last week of the season. You could easily have the Supercup in week 10, have the season start in week 11, and STILL have a few weeks left after the last scheduled national game until the end of the season, and your trade window would go from 27 weeks long to maybe 35 to 37 weeks long. It is all about spacing things out as you have 49 weeks available to you to play games. You don't have to compress everything. And the supercup in the first season won't have the true competitors in it but that isn't important as you'll be playing it for more than one season and the following seasons will have the correct teams playing in it.

I fixed some of these issues in the Faroe Islands definitions since I posted those builds. Specifically, the Super Cup is now week 1 instead of week 35. For the Faroe Islands definitions, I tried to make the schedule match real life as close as possible. I was unsure whether it was better to make week 1, week 1 of the Faroe Islands season which is in March or treat week 1 like the first week of January. What do other definitions do?

What do other definitions do? Ah...tstellar...how many other definitions have you tried in bygfoot? And perhaps which ones? I ask out of curiosity really. From what I know of the definitions I've played of the European definitions, they usually have the SuperCup take place before the top tier games begin. And as for the timings of the game play of the national games and national cup(s), they more or less follow a similar line I guess. It all depends on who made up the definitions in the first place. Although when you think about it, there's one main thing you have to think about...the European Cup circuit goes from July to May/June as most soccer leagues in Europe I believe run on a July to June schedule, more or less. There are a few countries which have different schedules, but most I believe run on that schedule. From what you are saying, Faroe Islands is one of those countries which runs from January to December. So, with that in mind, would it matter how you space it out when it won't even align with the European Cup circuit normally and with this game, there is no going from July to June or January to December, there is only going from week 1 to week whatever, which happens to be the end of the season? That is the point I'm trying to make.

So with this reply, I'm trying to make you think of a few things. With the reserve team logic, it sounds good and all until a user wants to play as one of those reserve teams and is then limited in their play because of it. And although your logic is good for promotion, what about when the first team takes a rather large dive with a reserve team doing better than the first team? As for the timings thing, the only benefit of the timing issue would be the length of the trade window as it is dependent upon the length of the league play. The later in a season that a league game is scheduled, the longer the trade window will be available. I can appreciate the desire for accuracy, but at times it isn't really needed, at least with scheduling league games or national cup games. Although if you are the one making the definition, you can make it any way you want.

I think that's all for now. Until next time,

Will aka will_the_canuck

When I rewrote the European definitions, i took out all the reserve teams and filled the spaces with teams from lower league teams. Te problem with Faroe Islands was that there wasn't enough teams to be able to keep the three tier league structure and so I had to reduce it to two tiers.

billys_boots wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:08 pm When I rewrote the European definitions, i took out all the reserve teams and filled the spaces with teams from lower league teams. Te problem with Faroe Islands was that there wasn't enough teams to be able to keep the three tier league structure and so I had to reduce it to two tiers.

Ok. As I am from North America, where we don't have a promotion and relegation system for our various fields of sport, when the idea of reserve teams comes up, I am of the idea that a reserve team is similar to a team in the minor leagues. So within the United States and Canada, we do have various leagues within the various fields of sport, that range from a professional league to a minor league. The purpose of the minor leagues is mostly for player development. The best players rise through the leagues until they get to the professional leagues, and there they get to earn the big money, as well as play against the best players that the related sport has, within the related leagues. So fields of sport like baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer, each have their own versions of minor leagues where player development takes place. Also, there are other leagues that the youth may participate in that would allow them to be seen and then drafted by a professional organization. Those draftees would likely start off in the minor leagues and work their way up to the professional leagues, of course.

So as this is my idea of the reserve team, where it is mostly for player development and the players themselves would be changing the teams, this is something that wouldn't really translate well I think to bygfoot. Bygfoot is more or less a team game where it is the team that either would advance or fall, if promotion and relegation is set up. So with this in mind, what would the composition of players of those reserve teams consist of? By that I mean would some of those reserve teams be teams that have players all under a certain age, perhaps? Like under 23? Or under 21? Because if not, at least in my mind, it makes me wonder what the purpose of the reserve team would be in the first place then if not to train your young recruits and all and to have them slowly work their way up to the first team. I should add that the minor leagues can be useful for your veteran players when they return from an extended period of injury, to help them through rehab and/or to get back to playing at a professional level.

I'll add a note here that in relation to the Faroe Islands, I did see that within the past year or so, they did actually have no promotions or relegations one year to the top tier because the top teams in the second tier were all reserve teams. When I get around to it, I do want to test out the code to see if that would happen with tstellar's build. It would be very interesting to see what would happen after a few seasons and whether or not it will crash or be fine. I'm assuming though that tstellar has tested this code with a few seasons of simulations at least.

Anyways, that's just my perspective in relation to reserve teams. And the Faroe Islands is fairly rife with a lot of reserve teams it seems. So on that note, take care for now.

Will aka will_the_canuck

The use of reserve teams varies throughout Europe. In some countries reserves teams are made up of youth players with maybe squad players that could be coming back from injury or are in need of match time. In the UK reserve teams exists because clubs have a large squad of players and having reserve/second teams gives all players a game. Premier League clubs tend not to have reserve teams anymore, they just loan out squad players to other teams. Reserve teams are also usually not allowed to compete in national cup competitions but would compete in league cup, which would only be contested by teams from within that particular league

billys_boots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:16 pm The use of reserve teams varies throughout Europe. In some countries reserves teams are made up of youth players with maybe squad players that could be coming back from injury or are in need of match time.

This I do understand as why else would you require a second team of players. Although I have not been able to thoroughly test this yet, I am thinking up ways tstellar may want to link all of this together and it makes me wonder. If you do nothing more than what it appears to be right now, wherein the reserve teams can not rise above the team in the organization above it, then what he has done is likely all that is needed, if it works after testing of multiple seasons. If he wants to further link the teams and allow player transfers between them, then that is something totally different and may require a lot more logical coding to make work. Also, I can maybe foresee if that is implemented, how users of the first team might try to offset injured players to reserve teams to heal and thus saving them costs as well as a player that can be played in the meantime. And then how player wages may play a part and all. It may become more complicated than it already is and may have to be. Although either way, I may foresee tstellar having to implement code that would then disallow users from being able to select and play as reserve teams, if they are limited in their play, as well as implementing an age limit likely for reserve teams to being younger than the average, since bygfoot does not discriminate when creating teams. I guess thirdly, if a user has a player in a reserve team that is there to heal while injured, he may have to check the logic for when a new season happens, that the team does not magically "regenerate" and everyone is new, thus possibly losing their injured player. All interesting points I think to consider.

In the UK reserve teams exists because clubs have a large squad of players and having reserve/second teams gives all players a game. Premier League clubs tend not to have reserve teams anymore, they just loan out squad players to other teams. Reserve teams are also usually not allowed to compete in national cup competitions but would compete in league cup, which would only be contested by teams from within that particular league

As for the UK reference, I'm thinking of the EFL Trophy which includes academy teams of the Premier League teams, right? And they play against the 3rd and 4th tier teams for a chance at that title. I guess for myself, having an academy league where just academy teams play against one another and there is no promotion or relegation would make sense, as the main competition is the academy teams themselves. When the reserve teams play in leagues that can be promoted or relegated, then it gets a little more interesting I guess. Although with the Faroe Islands as an example, that kind of goes to the extreme as there are way more reserve teams than one might normally expect, at least in relation to the number of first teams. Anyways, it is what it is. And as for the Premier League teams, and other teams around the world, I am familiar with players being "loaned" out and all.

For now, I think that is all. Have fun,

Will aka will_the_canuck

will_the_canuck, You are correct with the EFL Trophy, academy teams from the Premier League and Championship are included. I have been updating the English definition and have taken this into account by adding 16 academy teams to the cup but not to any league. The EFL Trophy doesn't offer progression for the winners, there is no entry to a UEFA competition.

billys_boots wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:31 pm will_the_canuck, You are correct with the EFL Trophy, academy teams from the Premier League and Championship are included. I have been updating the English definition and have taken this into account by adding 16 academy teams to the cup but not to any league. The EFL Trophy doesn't offer progression for the winners, there is no entry to a UEFA competition.

Hey billys_boots. You are correct about the EFL Trophy not being anything more than just a cup to be won. As it leads to nothing more, you can code it a little differently if wanted. My question is about adding the academy teams. As you likely made them inactive, did you also load them up in the country_england.xml file by listing them in the <leagues> section or not? I ask since myself, I have an issue with people that code definitions that way, wherein a user has the ability to select a team but that team isn't necessarily a playable team that will go anywhere except for a limited purpose, like as an added team to a cup file to help fill it out.

As you are adding academy teams to the competition, you can leave them off the list in the country_england.xml file and just have the EFL Trophy as an international cup file instead of a national cup file, this way, you can load up the tier 3 and 4 teams and then generate the academy teams and the user won't be able to select any of the academy teams to play as. If you were wanting to add the academy teams, as you are, I would think this would be the better way to code the cup file at least. I'll say that for myself, when I coded the EFL Trophy, I just used the teams from tiers 3 and 4 and didn't include any academy teams. Made it simpler I guess.

I'll add that because of my issue I have with definitions that are coded in a way that don't let all teams that are selectable to be played in the national game play, I'm actually going through some of the older definitions and making those selectable teams now playable. This relates to my update for the European definitions, as I have finished the updates, but now I'm in the testing phase and some definitions I have pointed out that need to be looked at and potentially updated, for this point. As an example, I did modify Latvia and have played 2 full seasons of it and it plays nicely now. It was one of the definitions that used inactive leagues as fillers for the national cup and nothing else. So now, all three tiers are playable and instead of game play going from weeks 1 to 32, game play spreads from weeks 9 to 47. I made note of some other definitions to look at, like Moldova, North Macedonia, Turkey, and Sweden, for the same issue, but there are others still with other things to look at. I also have to test my Kosovo definitions to see if they play like how I want them to play. Real fun, right? So overall, about 8 definitions to check first before I can finish with my definition updates, but there are likely more definitions too that use inactive leagues for the same purpose that I'm not looking at. Oh well.

So while I'm on the subject of the cup updates billys_boots, I was wondering how your cup updates were going as I did inquire about them earlier but didn't hear any response back. Hopefully all is going well. And on that note, I'll say good bye for now.

Will aka will_the_canuck

will_the_canuck you make a good point about inactive leagues. I did add the academy to the country file but since you mentioned changing the property of the EFL Trophy from domestic to international I will do this and remove the academy entry from the country file and retest.

The testing of the England definition has gone well and all domestic cups work as they should. I did have one issue during testing when a tier 2 team qualified for European competition which created a one 3 game week. I haven't decided whether to start tier 2 a week earlier to take into account this scenario, it probably doesn't happen very often, or just leave it as it is.

billys_boots wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:25 pm The testing of the England definition has gone well and all domestic cups work as they should. I did have one issue during testing when a tier 2 team qualified for European competition which created a one 3 game week. I haven't decided whether to start tier 2 a week earlier to take into account this scenario, it probably doesn't happen very often, or just leave it as it is.

Hey billys_boots. This point about a tier 2 team qualifying for European competition interests me as I'm wondering how it came about. Also, I do believe that UEFA has a rule about tier 2 teams qualifying for their European competitions, as in they don't allow it or rather would like to dissuade it from happening, no? Either way, if it was me, I'd give the team a shot as if they qualified for the spot, then they deserve the chance to prove themselves.

But getting back to this tier 2 team that you speak of. As you're testing the English definitions, it can only be the FA Cup or the League Cup that this tier 2 team won (or finished high enough) to qualify for the European competition (Europa League). So, my question is that this tier 2 team...did they start off in tier 1 or 2 and by the end of the season, did they end up in tier 1 or 2? I ask since if they started off in tier 2, they could have worked their way to being promoted and were strong enough to qualify and also get promoted to tier 1 for the following season. If they started off in tier 1, they could have been unfortunate to end up being relegated to tier 2, but still qualified for the Europa League. And finally, if they started off in tier 2 and ended up in tier 2, then they just got very, very lucky I'd say. So, which one was it? Where did they start and where did they finish?

I'll say that with myself, I did it once when I tried your Czech Republic updates for the 2019 season. I qualified for the European competitions by winning the national cup while in tier 2, if I remember correctly, but the following season, I was getting promoted to tier 1, so I was moving up the following season, in my example. It is possible, but is rare I'd say. I'd likely think that you could leave your timings and settings as is billys_boots as it likely wouldn't be a common occurrence for a tier 2 team to qualify for European competition, to begin with, and most likely if they were good enough to qualify, they would likely be moving up a tier also for the following season. I also remember winning the US Open in the original USA definitions, while playing a team in the PDL (tier 4). As there was no promotion or relegation in the USA definitions, the user could build a stronger team than teams in leagues above them. I just checked for the fun of it and the tier 1 average talent value was 7600 and the tier 4 average talent value was 6100.

Anyways, I'm just curious about this tier 2 team and where they started and where they ended up, after qualifying. And imagine if something like this really happened in England, eh? Although we know that if any of the top 4 teams in the Premier League won either the FA Cup or the League Cup, the next team in the Premier League would just qualify in their spot instead of the next team in the FA Cup or the League Cup winning that qualifying spot. But it is interesting to imagine it, right?

Bye for now,

Will aka will_the_canuck

Hello Will.

My instance of a tier 2 team playing in Europe came about while that was still plying in tier 2. Apart from this team qualifying for the Europa League by winning the FA Cup they also reached the play offs in the same season as they played in Europe. Fortunately the team only got as far as the last 16 in the Europa League so a second fixture overload was avoided, If the team had reached both the play off finals and the Europa League final it would have probably resulted in some very tired players.

Tier 2 teams have actually qualified for UEFA competitions. In 2013 Wigan Athletic won the FA Cup and were relegated from the Premier League in the same season, the only team to achieve this feat in England. In 2011 tier 2 Birmingham City won the EFL Cup so qualified for the Europa League, while still in tier 2. Other than that you have to go back to the 1970's when 3 tier 2 teams won the FA Cup in a space of 8 years, Sunderland 1973, Southampton 1976 and West Ham 1980, all 3 qualified for the now defunct European Cup Winners Cup while playing in tier 2. The last tier 2 team to play in Europa were Millwall by the fact they reached the FA Cup final in 2004 but lost and the rule at the time was if the winners had already qualified for Europe via a different route then the Runners Up would take that spot. This rule as since been dropped.

An extra bit of information on this topic. In 1969 Swindon Town, then a tier 3 team won the EFL Cup but UEFA rules forbid teams from below tier 2 leagues from entering it's competitions, so to reward Swindon Town a new cup was created, the Anglo-Italian League Cup, played between the EDL Cup winners and the Coppa Italia winners, Swindon winning the first final beating AS Roma. A year later a second competition was created and played between a handful of English teams and a handful of Italian teams. This was called the Anglo-Italian cup and ran for about 3 seasons, Swindon winning the first one.

I thunk this UEFA rule has since been dropped and the last time a team from outside the Premier League reached a domestic cup final was in 2013 when tier 4 Bradford City lost to Swansea City so didn't qualify for Europe and although Swansea are from Wales they actually represented England in the Europa League the nest season.

billys_boots wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:30 am Hello Will.

My instance of a tier 2 team playing in Europe came about while that was still plying in tier 2. Apart from this team qualifying for the Europa League by winning the FA Cup they also reached the play offs in the same season as they played in Europe. Fortunately the team only got as far as the last 16 in the Europa League so a second fixture overload was avoided, If the team had reached both the play off finals and the Europa League final it would have probably resulted in some very tired players.

Hey billys_boots.

Damn. A tier 2 team qualifying for European competitions and STILL being in the second tier after that qualifying season. That's kinda harsh. Oh well. But then that same team getting to the Round of 16 in the Europa League is quite impressive I'd say. Thinking of this a little more, I kind of wonder how powerful and strong this tier 2 team might be? As you have your tier 1 league average_talent value set to one value, what might you have your tier 2 average_talent value set to I wonder? By that, I mean with my English definitions, I have set for tier 1 an average_talent value of 8300 and for tier 2, the average_talent value is set at 7100. There is a difference of 1200 between tiers 1 and 2. I am making this difference of 1200 between the first two tiers for countries that have their top tier average_talent value of 7500 or more. Else, most other countries will have a difference of 1000 for their average_talent values between tiers 1 and 2. Such differences give the user a harder challenge I would say. And overcoming that difference isn't impossible, it just takes longer.

So with your example of the tier 2 team, what is the difference of the average_talent values between tiers 1 and 2 I wonder? It may sound like it isn't too far apart if a tier 2 team can qualify for European competition AND STAY in tier 2 after that qualifying season.

Tier 2 teams have actually qualified for UEFA competitions. In 2013 Wigan Athletic won the FA Cup and were relegated from the Premier League in the same season, the only team to achieve this feat in England. In 2011 tier 2 Birmingham City won the EFL Cup so qualified for the Europa League, while still in tier 2. Other than that you have to go back to the 1970's when 3 tier 2 teams won the FA Cup in a space of 8 years, Sunderland 1973, Southampton 1976 and West Ham 1980, all 3 qualified for the now defunct European Cup Winners Cup while playing in tier 2. The last tier 2 team to play in Europa were Millwall by the fact they reached the FA Cup final in 2004 but lost and the rule at the time was if the winners had already qualified for Europe via a different route then the Runners Up would take that spot. This rule as since been dropped.

Ooooooh. So Wigan wins the FA Cup in 2013 but gets relegated. Oh well. But at least they were going for what was important...European competition, but also a cup to win. So good for them and in the game, I think it would be possible for teams to do that, or at least play in European competitions and then get relegated or near relegation that same season as the European competition. So even though they ended up being relegated in the same season that they qualified, at least they won the FA Cup and can be remembered as FA Cup winners. As for the other teams winning either the FA Cup or the EFL Cup while still in tier 2, good for them. I might say that it takes stamina to win those cups while still performing the best you can in the league play, as there are just more games to play. So the strong get rewarded in other ways.

An extra bit of information on this topic. In 1969 Swindon Town, then a tier 3 team won the EFL Cup but UEFA rules forbid teams from below tier 2 leagues from entering it's competitions, so to reward Swindon Town a new cup was created, the Anglo-Italian League Cup, played between the EDL Cup winners and the Coppa Italia winners, Swindon winning the first final beating AS Roma. A year later a second competition was created and played between a handful of English teams and a handful of Italian teams. This was called the Anglo-Italian cup and ran for about 3 seasons, Swindon winning the first one.

I thunk this UEFA rule has since been dropped and the last time a team from outside the Premier League reached a domestic cup final was in 2013 when tier 4 Bradford City lost to Swansea City so didn't qualify for Europe and although Swansea are from Wales they actually represented England in the Europa League the nest season.

This is all interesting information I'll say as not all cup winners are from the top league and the lower leagues can surprise you. It could be a particular player or group of players that these lower league teams have that can surprise you. And in the long run, those same players can help the team move up in the rankings and tiers too. I guess I'm reminded of the 8th tier team Marine that played against Tottenham Hotspur in the third round proper of the FA Cup this past season? Though they lost the game, it was maybe predicted before it even started as Marine was an 8th tier team and Tottenham Hotspur were a tier 1 team. Though from what I recall, respect for each team was given by the other team, in respect of the players who played for Tottenham Hotspur that game. Though match-ups like this might be rare, they are always fun to see from the side of the lower tier.

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I do find it interesting that some lower tiered teams can surprise the upper tiered teams and win some major trophies. It is good to keep the upper tiered teams on their toes and not to underestimate the lower tiered teams.

Bye for now,

Will aka will_the_canuck