Idea for official league definitions in bygfoot

[tstellar]

I've been looking at the 2019/2020 team definitions posted by billys_boots (which are great, thank you). It would be great to have them as part of the official distribution, however, we cannot since they contain the real team names.

Once solution I've been playing around with is to replace the official names with for example, england_team1 for the top team in the premier league all the way through to england_teamN for the bottom team in the bottom division. This would allow us to get the league definitions themselves into the tree, and users could supply the real names themselves either using a 'Offical Names' file as documented here, or by supplying def_files for each team.

The advantage to doing it this way versus providing approved names (e.g city names or abbreviations) in the league definitions is that we would not need to update the league files for each new season (unless the structure of the league changes), because the primier league for example, would always use team names england_team1 through england_team20 and this would never change. However, users would have to update their 'Official Names' or def_files for teams that get promoted or relegated. e.g. If Blackpool gets promoted to the premier, it would need to be mapped to england_team20, instead of england_team21 or whatever it was in the lower division.

Does this sound like a good idea? Does anyone have other alternative solutions/

[will_the_canuck]

Once solution I've been playing around with is to replace the official names with for example, england_team1 for the top team in the premier league all the way through to england_teamN for the bottom team in the bottom division. This would allow us to get the league definitions themselves into the tree, and users could supply the real names themselves either using a 'Offical Names' file as documented here, or by supplying def_files for each team.

The advantage to doing it this way versus providing approved names (e.g city names or abbreviations) in the league definitions is that we would not need to update the league files for each new season (unless the structure of the league changes), because the primier league for example, would always use team names england_team1 through england_team20 and this would never change. However, users would have to update their 'Official Names' or def_files for teams that get promoted or relegated. e.g. If Blackpool gets promoted to the premier, it would need to be mapped to england_team20, instead of england_team21 or whatever it was in the lower division.

Ok. When you say "This would allow us to get the league definitions themselves into the tree," what exactly do you mean by that? Are you talking about getting the league definitions inputted as part of the program of bygfoot or just the league definitions as part of the official distribution? I'm maybe a little confused here. In reference to the web address you mention on how to do the "Official Names" switch, it does reference a script file that was used to update and patch the information, although whether or not it would work in the modern version, I do not know. And then the further link to see the current official names file has an error, so it doesn't load as expected.

You mention the advantage of mapping the teams to variables of country_teamN would be so that users would not need to update the league files every season when a change in teams occurs, yet if they want to stay current, they would then have to update their related file of "Official Names" or def_files for the individual teams that changed, season to season. I'm trying to think of this in a way. Although your idea may seem simpler, it may be more work than you think. I digress and say that with the Premier League as an example, you have 20 teams, in any given order. From what I'm understanding, your league files would contain variables instead of team names for the related positions when starting, and it would be the def_files that would likely be labelled something like team_england_teamN (or something like that as referenced here), without any real reference to which team that is unless the file is opened up and read. Might that be correct? So if at the end of a season, the previous season's 10th, 14th, and 18th teams were relegated, you might have to go through a few teams to actually find the relegated teams unless you had a list otherwise. Could that be a plausible scenario?

One thing you may or may not realize is that the current country definition files are done in xml format. As bygfoot is available to be played on different operating systems, editing and saving xml files on different operating systems can be a little tricky, if you're not careful. I say this from experience since when I would edit bygfoot definitions in windows using notepad, one thing I noticed was that files had to be saved in ANSI format, if I recall, for them to properly work with bygfoot. If I saved them in ASCII format or UTF-8, even though the file has that reference of <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> at the top of the file, it would still fail or potentially create issues. So, can you imagine a simple user modifying files and running into problems and not being able to understand what's wrong and coming on the forum here and well, posting about it? And this would be just for ONE file, as they would have to modify more than one file each time, they might never realize the full problem. At least with the league files that are posted on the forum, they are hopefully and usually tested and proven to work. A user would just have to plug and play in a way...copy the files to the respective directory and start playing.

Now as for the league files that are currently done, with the full teams and all in a single league file, it at least provides a simpler update method to the user, than having to say search for individual files and figure out which teams were promoted and which teams were relegated as with a single file, you have the full list there and you could place the teams in any order you want as it won't matter in the long run. Although too, I guess I'm wondering about whether or not you're talking about just the national league files or are you also talking about national cup files and maybe international cup files also? To what extent are you talking about this issue?

Does this sound like a good idea? Does anyone have other alternative solutions/

I guess I'm still wondering what you are asking, since there can be many variants to think of. When I think of another way, from what you mentioned, I'm wondering if you're talking about the coding of bygfoot, in reference to the numbering of the teams. I guess to me, the way the country definition files are defined within bygfoot is adequate. It is the actual definition files which define what the country will look like and how it will play out. Not every country is the same and there are differences between the countries out there in how they are structured and play, and that's ok too. I'm just wondering if you're wanting to change that in a way in the code, as that appears to be how some of the European countries are or not? And yes, the definition files may not be the easiest to figure out or work on, but they have their good points. As for the old files, they were done at a time where even now, some things have changed since then. And yes, teams may change from year to year but a simple update isn't too difficult. And as league structures or cup structures can change over time too, then a rewrite can be necessary. Oh well.

And I guess one last point about real names of teams compared to the unofficial names of teams...using billys_boots' postings as an example. The postings that billys_boots' posted had real names used for the European teams, more or less. They were posted on the public forum, for anyone to download and use, if wanted. For the "official" release of bygfoot, using unofficial names would be required, to avoid any legal issues, but it won't stop anyone from again, downloading the definitions on the forum and using the real names listed, or for that matter, editing the definitions and changing the names to real names, if wanted. Although it is work, once a good set of definitions are done, and finally committed to being posted with the bygfoot program, those definitions could be given unofficial names but then the real names could be posted on the forum, for the users to use, if wanted. But as for updating the definitions year in and year out, well, that's for the volunteers to do.

I guess one last point tstellar is that with the definitions, they are usually specific in timings and all, or at least the definitions I do. Even using a script to update the teams can create an issue if the number of teams changes in any way to change how the definitions would be run. One more or one less team may be loaded into a league file or cup file, and that could change how everything plays out. How the breaks in play may be affected. Or, how cups may cut off a team since there is no opponent for it to play. Sometimes, timing is everything and without proper testing, things can mess up. I guess this is why I'd prefer the old system as it is simpler. Although updating definitions in kind, where there are the same number of teams and all, would be just as easy, it is the odd things which will make the biggest impact. And when I think of it, the program of bygfoot is like an engine and the definitions are like an automobile that the engine is a part of. Although the engine is the powerplant of the automobile, it is the automobile that gives the engine a purpose. Without the automobile, the engine is just an engine. Without the definitions, bygfoot is just a program that can do nothing without an input.

So, hopefully it wasn't too boring or such? Though some further explanation of what you are saying would be helpful I think tstellar.

Bye for now,

will_the_canuck

[tstellar]

I guess a good summary of what I'm proposing is that the league definitions shouldn't reference any team names. Though, I'm not sure what I proposed is really the best solution. Maybe the team definition files should include the league the team is in? This seems like it would be easier to keep updated.

[will_the_canuck]

I guess a good summary of what I'm proposing is that the league definitions shouldn't reference any team names. Though, I'm not sure what I proposed is really the best solution. Maybe the team definition files should include the league the team is in? This seems like it would be easier to keep updated.

Well tstellar, I have to say that I disagree with your idea suggestion here, although it does not mean you yourself cannot try it out and see how or if it works. I just see it being more work than what is currently going on and using billys_boots' England definitions as an example again, for the first 5 tiers, I can see where it would appear that your idea would be simpler. But after the 5th tier, the number of leagues in each tier steadily increase from 1 league in tier 5 to 2 in tier 6 to 4 in tier 7 to 8 in tier 8 to 16 in tiers 9 and 10. As the 9th and 10th tiers each have 16 league files in billys_boots' example, imagine a user trying to search for updates for a specific team in a 9th or 10th tier league? Yeah. Doesn't sound so easy now, does it? Or what if the team got relegated from the 10th tier and no longer fits into the definitions?

All in all, although your idea may sound worthy, from my perspective as a person that has worked with definition files, it seems like your idea may create more work than just simply modifying a league file to update it or downloading a new set of country definitions to get updated information. There's also the point of finding the updated information first to even have that information to update the files with. Without finding the updated information, you couldn't really update your files anyway. That's where volunteers come in, as if they were the ones that created the definitions in the first place, they might be able to find the information to update those same definitions if wanted or possible.

One other point I wanted to make, specifically about billys_boots' 2019/2020 updates for the European countries. Those original definition files were likely created about a decade ago, give or take a year or so. He updated the teams and leagues to this past years' specifications you could say. So he was laying a blueprint of how the leagues kind of look and all, so now, if he or anyone else were to update those league files with updated team information, it would be a lot easier than say having to redo the country files entirely for any country as it may have changed since the country files may have been last done. But if a country's league structure has changed even since last year, well, then the country files would potentially have to be changed to reflect the new league structure, which as you know would be more work than simply changing the team names in the leagues only. So as some things stay the same, others change and when they change, it creates more work.

So tstellar, as I myself don't think your idea is a very good one at the moment, don't be discouraged as at least it is an idea. Now if you tried your own idea out and tested it and find it is worthy, then show proof and it can be considered. But then myself, as I mentioned, I'm just a normal person like yourself who likes the game and has nothing to do with bygfoot other than I made a few definitions for the forum.

will_the_canuck

[gunnar]

We used to have this: https://bygfoot.sourceforge.io/new/additional-download/

Basically we provided the definitions without names in the dowload package, then you have the file in previous link to update the names. However this file is incredibly old. More documentation about how this works is in https://bygfoot.sourceforge.io/new/doc/ ... teams.html